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Debate Watch: Romney v. Perry Debate Watch: Romney v. Perry

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Politics / CAMPAIGN 2012

Debate Watch: Romney v. Perry

Texas Gov. Rick Perry (left) and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney listen to fellow Republican presidential candidate Jon Huntsman, former governor of Utah (right), during the Fox News/Google GOP Debate at the Orange County Convention Center in Orlando, Fla.(Mark Wilson/Getty Images)

September 22, 2011

Meet the Debaters

Michele Bachmann

Michele Bachmann

The Minnesota congresswoman stumbled again last week when she suggested that vaccines, such as the one Rick Perry mandated administering in Texas, can cause mental retardation. With her poll numbers slipping, the tea party favorite will need to assert herself tonight to prove she’s still a viable candidate.

Herman Cain

Herman Cain

The former CEO of Godfather's Pizza and former host of a conservative radio talk show is a long shot, but his fiery stage presence has won him points among evangelicals and tea party adherents. Of late, he's touted a plan to levy 9 percent corporate, personal, and sales taxes. 

Newt Gingrich

Newt Gingrich

After a rocky start, including an en masse departure by his senior staffers, the former House speaker is struggling to stay relevant. Look for more attacks on the media, Gingrich’s favorite – and usually only – punching bag during these debates.

John Huntsman

Jon Huntsman

The former Utah governor, who served most recently as President Obama’s ambassador to China, is still struggling to break out of the pack, and a series of strange comments during last week's debate didn't help his cause. Still, a poll released this week shows him finally gaining ground in the key state of New Hampshire.

Gary Johnson

Gary Johnson

The ex-New Mexico governor and libertarian favorite returns to the debate stage after crossing the minimum threshold for support in national polls. His biggest challenge might be fighting his eight opponents for air time, a problem he encountered the last time he debated in May. 

Ron Paul

Ron Paul

The Texas congressman and repeat presidential contender has an ardent base of supporters, and his outspoken libertarianism suddenly seems more mainstream. Even if he remains a long shot, many national polls show him trailing only Romney and Perry. 

Rick Perry

Rick Perry

The Texas governor rode a wave of momentum to the top of the polls, but his honeymoon is definitely over. He's become the top target of his Republican rivals on hot button issues ranging from Social Security to immigration to the vaccine mandate. After two subpar debates, he'll need to improve on Thursday.

Mitt Romney

Mitt Romney

The former Massachusetts governor has become Perry's chief critic during the last two debates, challenging the Texas governor to defend his controversial statements about Social Security. Romney's no longer the front-runner, but he's proven during the last two debates that he's more than Perry's match on stage.  

Rick Santorum

Rick Santorum

The former U.S. senator from Pennsylvania has tried hard to gain traction with voters, emphasizing his foreign-policy, fiscal, and -- above all -- social-conservative credentials. Even if he lags well behind in polls, his fiery personality and 16 years in Congress serves him well in debates.

Debating in Florida, where one in five residents is a Social Security recipient, Texas Gov. Rick Perry and former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney clashed over their visions of the retirement program, continuing a lively debate between the two front-runners that threatens to overshadow the rest of the field.

The two sparred on Social Security, health care, immigration, and education, with Perry pressing to define Romney as outside the party's conservative mainstream -- "Obama-lite," as he termed Romney in an interview earlier this week -- and Romney describing Perry as a candidate prepared to cut his views to fit campaign fashions.

Perry, whose criticism of Social Security has fed his populist, anti-Washington image, sought to assuage concerns that he will do away with the retirement program. "Let me say first, for those that are on Social Security today, for those people that are approaching Social Security: They don't have anything in world to worry about. We have made a solemn oath to the people of this country that the Social Security program in place today will be there for them," he said. Then, even though the question came from Fox News panelist Megyn Kelly, Perry quickly pivoted to attack Romney, who has been making an issue of Perry's use of the term "Ponzi scheme" to describe Social Security.


"It is not the first time that Mitt has been wrong on some issues before,” he said.

Romney countered that Perry's debate-night views on Social Security are "different than what the governor put in his book.”

From National Journal:
PHOTOS: Orlando GOP Presidential Candidate Debate

Romney, Perry Grapple on Social Security

Micro-Analyses: GOP Presidential Debate

What the GOP Debaters Said on the Economy

Googling for a Nominee

“There's a Rick Perry out there that is saying … the federal government shouldn't be in the pension business," Romney said. "That it is unconstitutional. Unconstitutional and it should be returned to the states. You better find that Rick Perry and get him to stop saying that,” Romney said.

Exchanges like those prompted former Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman to quip at the end of the debate, “I'm tempted to say when all is said and done, the two standing in the middle, Romney and Perry, aren't going to be around because they are going to bludgeon each other to death.”

Though Herman Cain and Ron Paul got some of the loudest ovations of the night, the riveting confrontations between Romney and Perry seemed on the verge of turning the other seven candidates on the stage into spectators. The only real competition to the front-runners, in terms of providing talker moments, was the audience in the Orange County Convention Center, which at one point booed a soldier stationed in Iraq who revealed in his videotaped question that he is gay and questioned whether the candidates would retreat on what he called the “progress” made recently on military gay rights. The “don’t ask, don’t tell” ban on openly gay military service expired this week.

Perry and Romney tangled again and again. Challenged on the consistency of his Social Security views, Perry tried to turn the tables by arguing that Romney had changed his tune about the exportability of the Massachusetts universal health care plan, featuring an individual mandate, between the hardcover and paperback versions of his own campaign biography. Countered Romney: “I actually wrote my book.”

The Texas governor used a discussion on education policy to link Romney to the president. He criticized Romney for praising the administration’s Race to the Top program, which gives states grants in exchange for making changes to their educational systems, saying it showed he’s not conservative. 

“I think is an important difference between the rest of the people on this stage and one person that wants to run for the presidency,” he said. “Being in favor of the Obama Race to the Top … that is not conservative.”

Romney retorted, “Nice try,” drawing laughs from the audience. But he did praise Education Secretary Arne Duncan, saying he supported policies that encouraged teacher evaluations.

Perry Alone

Romney got help from former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum and Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn. -- not to mention the Orlando debate audience -- when it came to beating up on Perry for his immigration stands.

Romney labeled the in-state tuition rate Perry signed into law for illegal immigrants an “almost $100,000 discount.” Santorum called Perry “soft on illegal immigration.” Bachmann called government benefits for illegal immigrants “madness.” And the audience booed Perry.

The Texas governor was unflinching. Immigration policy has a special resonance in Texas, which claims a 1,200-mile border with Mexico and a nearly 40 percent Hispanic and Latino population share in the 2010 census. And Perry’s 10-0 election record in Texas is due in part to his ability to appeal to Latino voters, rendering him a rare commodity in the modern GOP, which has struggled to lure that demographic in part because of its occasionally hard-line immigration policy.

The more moderate stance could also help Perry in a general election, with many Latinos disappointed in President Obama’s immigration policies, including failure to pass the DREAM Act and what advocates call an overzealous deportation policy. Republican strategists worry that the rest of the field’s more hard-line stance could harm the party among Latino voters. Romney vetoed an in-state tuition bill in Massachusetts.

Dismissing the notion of a border fence as impractical, Perry emphasized his “boots on the ground” enforcement efforts, and the bipartisan support for his immigration policy, calling it a “state issue.”

“If you say that we should not educate children who have come into our state for no other reason than they've been brought there by no fault of their own, I don't think you have a heart,” Perry said.

That contrasted sharply with his fellow Texan, Rep. Ron Paul, who won great applause by thundering, “No free education. No free subsidies, no citizenship.”

Perry’s camp pushed back on the “soft” charge, noting that Perry supported fencing in strategic areas, had devoted more than $400 million in law enforcement spending to the border since 2005, and signed a law blocking illegal immigrants from receiving driver’s licenses.

Bachmann, Perry on HPV

Perry was equally undaunted on another issue. After Bachmann pivoted on a question about her claim that the HPV vaccine had caused mental retardation in a young girl to attack Perry’s efforts to mandate it, the governor issued an impassioned defense that put a face on his policy.

“I got lobbied on this issue. I got lobbied by a 31-year-old young lady who had stage 4 cervical cancer,” Perry said, saying he had already “readily admitted” the program should have included “an opt-in” clause.

“The fact is, I erred on the side of life and I will always err on the side of life,” Perry said. Perry’s campaign confirmed after the debate that he did not meet the woman until after he had signed the executive order.

The exchange pointed to central weaknesses for both candidates. Bachmann has developed a reputation for coughing up factually wrong statements in public, and much was made of her post-debate narrative of the young girl who developed mental retardation after the vaccine, a story Bachmann said the girl’s mother had told her.

“I didn't make that claim nor do I make that statement. Immediately after a debate a mother came up to me and was visibly shaken and heartbroken because of what her daughter had gone through. I only related what her story was,” Bachmann said, shifting responsibility for the claim to the woman who had approached her.

Perry, on the other hand, has been parrying questions about both the big-government feel of a mandatory vaccine program for young girls he imposed through executive order and Bachmann’s charges of crony capitalism because his former chief of staff, a longtime friend, had lobbied for drug company Merck.

Capitol Capital

From the early moments of the debate, Perry and Romney showed how their respective home states figure in the GOP primary. Perry played up his home state and its enviable job growth record in the midst of a recession.

Romney, ex-governor of liberal bastion Massachusetts, is happy to downplay policies he pursued there -- such as health care form -- that are unlikely to be assets in a GOP nomination contest dominated by conservatives. Instead of looking back on his record, Romney was happy to play up his future vision for the national economy.

Boasting that the Lone Star State has been the leading destination for relocating workers for five years in a row, Perry jovially acknowledged Florida Gov. Rick Scott in the audience and added: “We plan on keeping it that way, Rick.”

Perry’s competitive jab may have been intended as a friendly one, but his emphasis on Texas’s continued success at the expense of other states, underscores concerns by some of his advisers that the governor’s appeal could be circumscribed by his state's border.

Romney, on the other hand, played up federal priorities: corporate tax rates, the desire for regulators and government to ally with businesses, middle class tax cuts, and trade policies that could help U.S. businesses against competitors such as China.

Perry's foreign policy agenda has been hard to define and he didn't help himself at the debate. Asked what he would do if he received a “3 a.m. phone call” saying that Pakistan had lost control of its nuclear weapons to the Taliban, the Texas governor demurred. Responding would depend on building strong relationships with other countries, he said. “The point is, our allies need to understand clearly that we are their friends, we will be standing by with them,” he said. “Today we don't have those allies in that region that can assist us, if that situation that you talked about were to become a reality.”

Second-Tier Applause

Though most of the political attention is focused on the frontrunners Perry and Romney, the applause meter seemed to register the highest responses for Herman Cain and Ron Paul.

Cain even took a shot at Romney, to the crowd’s delight, when he compared their plans for overhauling the tax system.

“Unlike Governor Romney's plan, my plan throws out the old one. He's still hooked to the current tax code,” he said. “That dog won't hunt.”

Paul followed Cain, and received a question, sent via video from a couple in Indiana, right in the libertarian’s wheelhouse: Would he limit the size of the federal government?

“The responsibility of the president would be to veto every single bill that violates the 10th amendment. That would be the solution,” he said, succinctly. Moderator Chris Wallace, taken aback by the congressman's brevity, joked that he had much more time to answer the question.

The night’s final question came via YouTube, querying which of the other candidates would serve as running mate. Perry said he couldn’t just pick one. So, somewhat bizarrely, he picked two.

“If you could take Herman Cain and mate him up with Newt Gingrich, I think you would have a couple of really interesting guys to work with,” he said, drawing laughs.

Perry’s response drew a humorous retort from Romney.

“There are a couple of images I'm going to have a hard time getting out of my mind,” he said, laughing. Romney, though, offered no concrete response.

A few of the candidates did answer the question. Former New Mexico Gov. Gary Johnson said he would choose his fellow libertarian-leaning candidate, Paul, while Santorum said he would pick Gingrich. Paul said he wouldn’t decide until he reached one of the top two positions in the national polls, and Gingrich said he didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings by not selecting them.

Johnson also got off perhaps the night’s best line, saying, “My next door neighbor’s two dogs have created more shovel-ready jobs than this present administration.”

A transcript of Rush Limbaugh’s show from earlier in the day showed the popular conservative talk-show host deploying a similar joke.


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