© National Journal Group Inc.
Friday, Jan. 18, 2008

National Journal's Linda Douglass sat down with the Rev. Jesse Jackson for "National Journal On Air." This is a transcript of their conversation. Audio of the full show is also available.

Jackson: Good to hear your voice.

Jackson: Well, I think that the more they get to know him, the more they are attracted to him. At the very beginning, most African-Americans and Americans met Barack in Boston at the speech; he had not taken a trip around the park, around the league, so to speak.

On the other hand, Hillary was much better-known -- many years ago worked with the Children's Defense Fund and Marian Wright Edelman. She worked in the delta in Mississippi and Arkansas and gained that reputation. She worked with the Legal Defense fund, a lot of outreach in the White House, so she had relationships. But now, as they debate more and people get to know them better, there's an immense pride factor as an African-American, so far, running so well.

Jackson: Well, South Carolina is steeped in polarization. After all, that is where the first shot was fired to kick up the Civil War to maintain slavery. That's why I'm anxious for them not to get caught up in race-baiting traps, but to discuss race relations in that state. From infant mortality to life expectancy, there are race disparities. In education and in graduation, there are race disparities. South Carolina is like 30 percent black; the prisons are 75 percent black. The 34 state prisons are majority black, so the largest industry in the state is jail industrial complex for profit.

And so, while we speak of one America and one flag, there are at least two societies. As Dr. King would say, we are free but not equal. And the challenge now is to heal the breach, close the gap and fight for equality. And that struggle, the fight for equality beyond freedom, is the burden of whoever would next be the president.

Jackson: No, it's fantasy to say the rhetoric of the last week is a structural crisis in that state. Surely we know better than that. When you look at from health care to jobs to graduation... You know, when Clemson plays in South Carolina, you see more equality on the ball field. But in the classroom, there is great disparity. In March, you see March Madness; in graduation you see May sadness. And if you use some objective data -- like life expectancy and infant mortality and graduation rates, who enters college, who graduates, who are the business people, who are the land owners -- you see there are structural gaps and that we must not avoid those gaps, we must build bridges. But to close the educational gap and the health gap and to have that representation across the board requires investment. And that is the burden of our society to, in fact, invest in healing that breach and closing those gaps.

Jackson: Well, his language is his own choice, except the structural inequality is so self-evident, it will not go away. Leaders -- you know, Dr. King campaigned for Lyndon Johnson against Goldwater, because he knew if Goldwater had won, we wouldn't have gotten the Voting Rights Act. He couldn't be race-neutral; it had to be a commitment to racial justice. We couldn't have gotten an Open Housing Act if Goldwater had won over Johnson. So we had to have leadership that would in fact close those gaps.

Everyone talks of racial reconciliation, but racial justice precedes reconciliation. You can't heal a sore with glass in it; you got to heal the wounds. You have to take the glass out. You have to make a commitment to close those gaps. But let's go a step further: It's not just race gaps, it's class gaps. In South Carolina, 62 percent of all working people have no health insurance. Most poor people are not black, by the way. They are white, they are female, they are young, where the white, black and brown hunger hurts. So I would think this is a great moment to move from racial battleground to economic common ground, to moral higher ground.

Jackson: Well, I think in many ways many white Americans are changing. There is less color shock. You know, I recall being arrested for using the public library. The idea of a black reading a book in the library with whites was like, shock. We're beyond that now. There's a lot of social maturation taking place, so some of the edge off of some of the outer layers of race reaction have changed. And so, to that extent, America is getting better.

There is still the underlying challenge, however, of structural inequality. It's not enough to, as Dr. King would say, for us to embrace socially and not still have equality and access to education, health care, capital industry and technology. And I think that this campaign... I look at the scene in New Hampshire -- that night with Richardson, the Hispanic; Edwards, a populist from the South, South Carolina, indeed; Barack, a black; and Hillary Clinton, a woman -- the four of them in that one camera shot; the backdrop of New Hampshire, discussing the great issues of our time. That's development. We've not always been there as a nation. And I would hope that in the remaining days of the campaign, that the campaigns can focus on the issues that matter, not get caught sniping at each other. I mean, let's focus on issues that matter and come out of this and allow all people to be winners.

Jackson: Thank you, ma'am.

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