Pound: Well, after the Times the story ran -- which, you know, what it really did was suggest that she had had an affair with McCain and also that she had you know received benefits for her clients -- and what happened was that I had been working during the summer on a number of things including just contacting sources on her, and in September I negotiated with her in September. We had a couple of off-the-record conversations in late September and the 24th of September she agreed to talk to me, and so the first meeting we had was off the record. I think again she still wanted to see if she was comfortable in dealing with the press because, as an aside, she is not very comfortable in the spotlight. I think after that interview she was satisfied that I would be fair. I told her very much up front that this would probably reignite this whole controversy over her and John McCain. So anyway, we did the two on-the-record interviews on the 29th and 30th of September and then I did a lot of what I call defensive reporting to make sure that I knew what the heck was going on here in terms of, you know, what her motivations I did not see. You know, just basic stuff that you have to do. And your listeners should realize that Vicky Iseman has been a lobbyist for 18 years. One of her assignments was to work the Senate Commerce Committee, and she acknowledges that she had good access to the committee and would see McCain and get him on a normal scheduling. She says she did not have special access to him. She also says very strongly that she never had a relationship with him, personal relationship with him.

Q: Do you mean sexual?

Pound: I do. She says specifically, I did not have a sexual relationship with Senator McCain and she even says this: She basically says, I've never been alone with Senator McCain.

Q: Then why didn't she tell the New York Times that?

Pound: I think she was, at the time, I think she, at the time she told the Times she denied the relationship. The way I looked at what was going on there is she had operated pretty much from 1991, she came here to Washington in 1991 and was a kid from Indiana, Pennsylvania, a small town girl, and she came here, got a job in two weeks over at this lobbying firm Alcalde and Fay which is in Arlington, Virginia. And she got this job as a receptionist and then after a while she became the special assistant to the owner of the company. So within seven years she made partner, and then for the next 10 years or so she pretty much operated under the radar, which many lobbyists do, as you know Tammy. You know she was working her -- learning the ropes, getting -- you know, she had actually learned -- let me qualify this a bit: She had actually done some lobbying work before she actually became a partner in '98. But anyway, she was concentrating on her clients and when the Times came at her I had investigated her in January of 2007 while I was at U.S. News and World Report and I had a series of e-mail exchanges with her at the time. She wouldn't see me then, despite many efforts I made to get her to talk to me and eventually after my investigation looking into these rumors about Iseman and McCain, I concluded that I couldn't prove it, so I couldn't write it, in my judgment. So I didn't use it in a story that I wrote for U.S. News and World Report in May of 2007 about McCain lobbyist and big money.

Q: Well but you know one thing: TheNew York Times -- I mean, you can say what you want. The New York Times is pretty darn careful. I mean, we can't get into who said what to whom but I can -- what I do want to talk about and you talked about in the piece is the role of John Weaver, the longtime close adviser to McCain. Can you talk about that?

Pound: Sure. I mean, Weaver's story's pretty simple: I didn't do what she said I did. Iseman contends that Weaver was behind this story, that he had an ax to grind and that he was the guy who pretty much played the New York Times to do this. She says that there are only certain things that could have been known by Weaver.

Q: Well one of them is that she asked McCain to share a blanket with her.

Pound: Yeah, there's e-mail traffic and there's an e-mail exchange in which the Times asked her, Did you ask Senator McCain to share a blanket with you on this 1999 flight? McCain is coming back from Florida with John Weaver and Vicky Iseman, and the Times asked, Did you come back -- did you ask -- did you offer to share a blanket with Senator McCain? And of course, she says -- she told me first of all, That allegation is not true. And she told the Times that too, and the Times didn't print that section of it. But the Times and the story didn't identify the aide. She told me that aide was John Weaver, and I confirmed that. So she said the person that would have known that story, if there was -- or could even make up a story like that -- would have been Weaver because he was the only one on the plane with her and McCain. Now, you know, what Weaver did with that information, if there was such information, he is not saying on the record.

Q: Why didn't she just come forward and talk at the time?

Pound: She, you know...

Q: Because when she tells, she tells you here she came forward because she worried that she damaged the McCain Campaign. That story damaged them.

Pound: Yeah. I think she -- I think she -- you know, again, I think Tammy, it goes back to her reluctance to deal with the press. She is a very private person and...

Q: Right. But she -- you also write that she is talking to Rick Davis, who she worked with.

Pound: Yes, exactly and she's talking to Davis -- what I was trying to do in this story is be totally transparent so the reader knew whatever potential motivations were there, I'm telling the reader. I'm telling the reader, Reader, this is what I found. You make the judgment as to what you think is going on here because there're just certain things you can only go so far, but I will tell you Tammy, that she told me that after this article appeared she was stunned. That's the word she used. She said that over the next several months, actually about four months, she struggled with whether to do this. She said that, she just made a decision that if she just worked hard, it would all go away. And she said after the convention and the criticism of [Sarah] Palin and all the press coverage, she felt she had to speak out. She regrets, I know, that she didn't speak out after the story.

Q: Well, but see -- what's also interesting in what she said is also her conversations with Rick Davis at the time and just reading it, Ed, it makes me think, Well, Rick told her not to talk, which, you can't blame him. He is chairman of the campaign, the last thing he needs is wallpaper of that interview.

Pound: Yeah. What I think that interview says is: one, they were in contact during the Times reporting; two, they remained in contact up until a couple of months ago, after the Times story. I asked her if Weaver was managing her message and she denies that strongly and -- Of course, not Weaver. I'm sorry, I meant Davis. Forgive me. -- that Rick Davis was managing her message, and she denies that strongly and says that no one's going to manage her message. That this is the way she feels. This is a woman whose whole identity, Tammy, was as a professional lobbyist. One of her lawyers said to me, You know, this cut right to the heart of her identity. And I think from the emotional discussions I had with her, I think there's something to that.

Q: Well also -- living in this town in all these years and you've investigated most of these big stories. You know you can't walk down the street without everyone pointing at you.

Pound: No, that's right.

Q: Although she did look good in all the photos, right?

Pound: Yeah, no. No, she is an attractive lady, and I think it is a -- I hate this phrase -- cautionary tale.

Q: Right.

Pound: But it is a cautionary tale. I mean, it is difficult town for a nice looking woman who is also professional. I mean, if people assume if you smile at somebody that, you know, oh boy. So I think that it is just, you know, it is a difficult place. And I think -- I think she has been singed to the [inaudible] itself on this story, and I think frankly she is trying to get some kind -- and I hate this word too but -- closure. I think she is trying to put this thing behind her, and I think she ultimately decided that it might -- it might do that.

Q: Well, she should have listened to you early on.

Pound: She should have let me interview her. I would have interviewed her at the time, and I would have gone over all these things with her. But it still probably wouldn't -- since she is so much denying it and I had no -- I couldn't prove it, Tammy. I mean, at the time I did the original effort in January of 2007, I had a lot of rumors and a lot of gossip. But that doesn't make a story.

Q: Well we should also say that the New York Times does stand behind their story, which they say to you.

Pound: Yes, they did, and they made Dean Baquet, who is a Washington bureau chief and someone I have known a while. Dean was very strong in his support of this story. So were the other reporters. Marilyn Thompson -- who is an editor at the Washington Post and a first-rate reporter and someone who I know pretty well or pretty decently, we were on the same board, nonprofit board -- she was strongly in support -- you know, she believed this story was a good story.

Q: And Jim Rutenberg.

Pound: Yeah, well Jim is, Jim was the lead reporter on this one. I think he -- you know, I can't get into his head, but he obviously thought it was a very good story.

Q: Thank you, Ed Pound.

Pound: Thank you, Tammy.

Q: It is great to have you at the National Journal.

Pound: Thank you.