Q: Well, speaking of help, you did an interview with me for Newsweek where you were highly complimentary -- oh no -- you were highly critical of the Britney Spears/ Paris Hilton [John] McCain ad, which -- just to say that out loud always makes me laugh.

(laughter)

Castellanos: Well, I do think that Britney Spears' numbers have gone down since that ad. She is now running ten points behind [Barack] Obama.

(laughter)

Q: She already lost custody of her kids, too. But she is a registered Republican.

Castellanos: Yeah. Well, you know, it's certainly an attention-getter, and you have to say that the McCain folks got their news value's worth out of that ad -- it's certainly being talked about all over the place. But the problem, I think, and the challenge for Senator McCain is he is the un-politician, he is the un-cola, and when you do ads that don't necessarily look as serious as the issues that people are concerned about today, it makes you look a little political. And that was my concern about that ad.

Q: And does it make you look racist, Hilary? It made me think of the Harold Ford ad with the, "Harold, call me!"

Rosen: Well, I think for starters it makes you look nonsubstantive, and it does lower his credibility factor. He has always been someone where his brand was really about the issues and about focus and about independence, and frankly about fame, about being famous for that -- and here he is sort of whining about someone else's fame. I think that this shows John McCain is uncomfortable in his own skin. I think when he gets side by side with Obama he is not going to be able to sort of sustain this posture of personal attacks, and once it becomes clear that he's uncomfortable doing it, then I think his entire brand falls apart.

Castellanos: You know, there was a little bit of -- there is the South Carolina experience against George Bush, where McCain said that George Bush was spinning like Clinton, and it worked to McCain's detriment. I don't think we should confuse, though -- there are two things -- one is, does the hit on Obama work? And frankly, that may work, because it seems to be effective; people do seem to have some concern that Barack Obama has the Wendy's problem: There's just not enough meat there. Where's the beef?

Q: Well you must not have seen his rally today, Alex.

Castellanos: Listen...

Q: OK, go ahead. Finish.

Castellanos: There are a lot of popular rock stars out there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are qualified to be president. Barack Obama -- we still don't know who this guy is.

You read "Dreams From My Father," which is just a beautiful book -- I mean, it's poetic and lyrical, and it's inspiring; as a Republican, I have to tell you, you're moved by it. But one of the things you see in that book is that there is not one Barack Obama, there are many. And it's a man who has been many men in his life -- a boy from Kenya, a man from Kansas, an elite from Harvard, a guy from the Chicago streets, a man who is one race, who is another and now he goes over to Europe and he is, you know, a citizen of the world. But, Iowa -- "this is our moment" -- who is this guy? He still has not answered that, and fame without substance can be a trap.

Q: Why didn't they do that ad, Alex? What you just said would have brought people in. Because I think the interesting thing about this election is people seem to actually for the first time want more substance.

Castellanos: Yeah, well, I think they could do that ad, and if so, I'll send them a bill.

(laughter)

Rosen: I think it's pretty clear, though, that where Barack Obama is on the issues is right in keeping with where the American people are on the issues. And the more he stays focused on that and pushes back on McCain for not talking about the issues the better off he is. He has got to continue to introduce himself to people, but frankly, people want to know that he cares about them more than worrying about whether they care about him, and I think that's the piece that is clearly still missing from this general [election].

And when you look at energy, when you look at health care, when you look at cost of education, when you look at middle-class tax cuts -- actually where Obama is about those values is exactly where the American people are, and I think that the challenge for him is to get out of this sort of personal character evaluation and stay focused on the issues.

Castellanos: I think there's a lot of truth in that -- where Obama is moving is where the American people are. You know, certainly, his first announcement ad, that 60-second ad where he's the candidate who's going to cut taxes, who's for welfare reform, who's got heartland values -- you know, I think McCain's going to pick him for vice president if he gets any more Republican. He is certainly moving that way. He is a left of center guy who understands he is running in a right of center country, and he's moving that way. But then we're now meeting that new Barack Obama which is different than the one he's been. Every time you think you're getting to know this man, you meet another one, and this...

Rosen: I don't think that washes. If anything, he's more of a blank slate, and people will accept that he is where he is on his positions. I think it's actually harder for John McCain to be moving towards the right the way he has been because he has, you know, a 25-year voting record. So when Carly Fiorina is out there saying John McCain is good for women, and yet he's voted against child nutrition, he's anti-choice, he's voted against family planning, he's voted against every single thing that women have traditionally cared for -- it doesn't wash. Whereas you don't have that with Barack Obama, and that's why I think his brand of being a "change" politician is his best focus.

Q: But Hilary, Rick Davis, the campaign manager of the McCain campaign, today came out with this statement: "Barack Obama has played the race card, and he played from the bottom of the deck." I love that, my kids play from the bottom of the deck. "It's divisive, negative, shameful and wrong." They are bringing race way out in the open and waving it like a giant flag over America. Will it work?

Rosen: No, it won't work, and I think Obama made a critical mistake in suggesting that comment about, you know, "McCain is going to say I don't look like the presidents on the dollar bills." McCain didn't say that. For him to accuse him of that was a big mistake. I think --

Q: Why is that? Because he taunted him? Because he gave him the opportunity?

Rosen: He taunted him, and I don't think that this country really wants this election to be about race. And I think if it is, that hurts Obama. The African-American vote is not much in question; what we're really talking about is the white vote. But yet as an African-American when you hear someone being consistently called risky, dangerous, different -- you know, what you hear isn't always what's being said. What you hear is based upon a lifetime of slights. And white people have to understand that a little better than we do. And so, you know, intentions are important, but words are important too.

Q: Alex?

Castellanos: Well, you know, I think everybody is being very careful in this race.

Q: Careful?! Who's careful? Are you kidding? Who's careful?

Castellanos: ... I think, very careful to not set off any kind of racial powder keg, no one wants that. It would be a disaster for the country, and so --

Q: So how do you describe Rick Davis' statement? What would be another way to describe that?

Castellanos: I think Rick Davis is saying, don't brand us that way, we are not those guys, we don't want this election to go that way. And I think, frankly, I have to agree with Hilary. I think Barack Obama's run a near perfect campaign -- very few missteps. When you're out there on the trail all the time, you're walking the high wire day after day, now and then a foot is going to slip, and I think a foot slipped for Barack Obama here and the McCain people certainly took advantage of it. But I think if anything, everyone's racial sensitivities somewhat protect Barack Obama.

Q: OK, you two, we have one minute left, and I don't want you to agree again.

(laughter)

Q: By next Friday when the Olympics begin, we will probably have a VP nominee from McCain. Who is it going to be, Alex?

Castellanos: Well, other than Barack Obama if he continues to move right, I think it will either be Mitt Romney or Lindsey Graham.

Q: Who will help him win the most?

Castellanos: I think Mitt Romney would give him good economic credentials and would help him in Michigan. And Michigan is one of the must-three -- Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan -- you gotta win two out of three, and I think Mitt would help there. But he loves Lindsey Graham; they're like brothers, and at the end of the day I think McCain may want somebody he can trust with his life and with the security of the country, and that may be Lindsey Graham. Those are my guesses.

Q: Hil?

Rosen: Well, Lindsey Graham is a good out-of-the-box choice. I think he would be harder for Democrats to beat up on. I think we're salivating at the prospect of Mitt Romney, because Romney has you know, put his credibility out there as such a great businessman, but the fact is when he was in business, his job was to essentially buy up companies and fire all the employees. And we'd be pretty excited about promoting Romney's business...

Castellanos: No, no. Hilary, you can't make money if you fire all of the employees. He didn't quite do that.

(laughter)

Q: Words to live by. Alex Castellanos, Hilary Rosen, thank you for being with us today on "National Journal On Air." By the way, they're both on CNN -- part of that powerful team in cable. Thanks, guys.