Q: Britney Spears, yes, that's right.

Madison: Britney Spears is a registered Republican, so she's probably closer to John McCain than she is to Obama, at least politically-wise. And to suggest that somehow, by using the magic of video, you interplay that with Obama. Now, what our audience talked about on the Power was the fact that if there were two celebrities -- if you really didn't want to play the race card and there were two celebrities who endorsed Obama who are far more recognizable than Spears and [Paris] Hilton, that would have been, who? One, would have been, first of all, Oprah Winfrey.

Q: Fair enough.

Madison: She was the first major to celebrity to really support Obama. And the other one would have been my good friend from Detroit, Aretha Franklin. Now, why didn't they show those two women? See, and so, this is subliminal. It's just as simple -- as I said to people, this is not the day of Jim Crow. Jim Crow has taken off the hood and the robe and he's put on a pinstripe suit and he's now James Crow, Esquire. It's a very sophisticated form. And then, of course, talk radio. Anyone that's driven across the country, who's listened to terrestrial talk radio, right-wing conservatives have heard people make fun of Obama's name. You still have people in America who believe -- this is amazing -- that he's not a Christian, even though he was married in a Christian church, attended a Christian church, baptized in a Christian church, children are baptized in a Christian church, who still believe that he is Muslim -- as if that should make a difference in the United States of America, where we have freedom to worship any religion we want to. So it's gotten nasty a lot earlier than I had expected. That's my answer to that. And I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Q: The Obama campaign seems to be responding, how can I say, sort of halfway. Because they clearly don't want to dive into all of this morass, there's no better way to say it. Because it's not clear allegations, it's just -- as you said -- subliminal advertising. Actually, it's funny, it's sort of all the tricks that you use on a regular basis to bring an audience in and draw attention to something. When I saw it I thought of the Harold Ford ad.

Madison: Well, see, I did too. And it was funny, I was watching one of the cable news shows and a Republican spokesperson was saying, "No, it wasn't Harold Ford, and matter of fact, what happened to Harold Ford was well deserved," which shocked me, particularly coming from an African-American woman who happened to be the spokesperson that was talking at the time. Look, that was not well deserved. The intention of the Harold Ford ad, because he was in the lead -- he was leading at the time, not by much, but he was leading at the time in the Senate race -- and it was like throwing red meat at people who want to believe this kind of racist attitude that it makes a difference what color a person's skin color is when they fall in love or who they are attracted to. You know, it's something I said a long time ago, colors don't fall in love, people do. But that's still like red meat. And again, if you weren't playing the race card, then you could have gotten Aretha, you could have gotten Oprah, and you could have told the same story. But they knew what they were doing. And I can guarantee you, they talk about vetting vice presidential candidates, they vetted that ad. Or, they call them focus groups.

Q: Well let me give you an exact quote from Rick Davis, McCain's campaign manager: He says, "Barack Obama has played the race card, and he played it from the bottom of the deck."

Madison: Meaning he cheated? [Laughter] I don't know what that means.

Q: That's what we do with my kids when we play games. My son just learned -- he's 6 -- he learned how to play from the bottom of the deck.

Madison: [Laughter] You taught him to cheat already with Old Maids?

Q: Right, but isn't it a successful strategy, you could argue, because it just implies cheating, you know, lying, stealing?

Madison: Well, it implies that anything goes in this day and age of politics. That's really what it implies. You know, I lament over the fact that today, the number one story should have been the fact that Exxon -- $11.7 billion profit -- I mean, that's a quarter. They broke their own record. No corporation in American history has ever had that kind of profit. And they're still not satisfied. And then, the other story, which was in the Wall Street Journal, that has gotten very little attention is the fact that Wal-Mart, in seven states, have held meetings with employees telling them that if you vote for a Democrat, you can expect unionization to take place and all the ills that go with having a union. To me, that is unheard of, that the largest corporation in America would interject itself in the political process by, in essence, suggesting to employees, minimally, who they ought to vote for.

Q: Well, and they hired big Democratic operatives last year to sort of smooth the way in Washington because of all the stories about the lack of health care of most of their employees. So I guess they're not worried about that anymore.

Madison: Well, I guess. Again, what you just brought up is a public policy issue. People have the right to organize unions. Most companies that treat their employees properly and respectfully, they don't have to worry about unions being organized. They really don't. People aren't stupid. If they organize a union, it's simply because they think a union is necessary to get the things that they need -- to get livable wages and fringe benefits.

Q: Well, let me ask the other question: Then why didn't candidate Obama bring that up? Why didn't he talk about Wal-Mart, why didn't he talk about Exxon's profits in such a way -- I mean, look, the reasons the Republicans are doing this is because he's so dominated the headlines. We know that. But the question is Obama could change the conversation by talking about the things that you're mentioning. And I didn't hear him say that.

Madison: And you are absolutely right. I honestly think that -- in some ways they are very naive, and in other ways I think they are too cautious, and third, I think the Obama campaign people need to learn how to play chess. And fourthly, I think the problem is that Republicans play hardball, Democrats play softball in the same diamond. You can't do that. As I tell people -- I'm an old football player -- when we used to play sandlot football, pick-up games, the first debate was, do we play tackle or do we play touch? You can't play both. You've got to play one or the other. Republicans are playing hardball tackle. I mean, they're playing it. And Democrats are so afraid that they're going to be labeled as unreasonable -- I think that they need to really get serious and tough about the game that they're in, because, as I pointed out earlier, it's going to get nastier before it gets better.

Q: But the problem is, as you know, whatever brought a politician, any person -- you, anyone that's successful in this world -- the path that they used to get there, the methodology, right, the thing that makes them great is also the thing they have the hardest time to get away from. I mean, Barack Obama has used this soaring rhetoric because that's who he is. He likes looking for the dream, he likes pointing at the dream. He's not a guy that's going out there and grabbing -- when you cover him, I don't know how many times you've been on the road with him, he never puts his hand out and says, "Take my hand, come with me on this path and do this." He says, "We can all do it together." But there's not -- it was so interesting when the Kennedys endorsed -- this was when it was most obvious to me -- that they are just reaching out and plunging into the crowds. Barack Obama does not plunge into the crowds. He was successful because he wrote that book, millions of people bought the book, right? People have followed him because of the soaring rhetoric. So you're suggesting he takes a different path, and I'm just saying I think that's always the hardest corner for any politician to take.

Madison: Well, but they have to take it. Your observations are very interesting. I've not been on the road with him; I was just recently at the NAACP convention. Now, I observed him going into the crowd. And maybe he's heard you and he's changed his style. But you're absolutely right. See, I think that the real test is going to be the debates.

Q: Right.

Madison: I think that's what's really -- that's where you're going to start seeing the shift in these polls. Mentioning polls, I think one of the other things, the reason why everybody keeps talking about, "Why isn't he way ahead, why isn't he way ahead if he's got all this enthusiastic support" -- I think part of the reason he's not way ahead is that polls basically call people at landlines. And most of the people supporting Obama in this day and age are young people. They have cell phones. And polling may have to change. Of course, you know, pollsters don't have cell phone numbers, I hope they never get them.

Q: Well, they might go online, which might make it even more difficult.

Madison: And that would even make it more difficult because you know, McCain is just now learning how to operate a computer, he said. So he is just now navigating the Internet. I'm not laughing at him, I'm laughing with him.

Q: You are laughing with him. Because you just --

Madison: Because I'm learning the same thing too, I'm learning the same thing too. I mean, you know, my grandchildren -- this is a true story -- I bought one of these smart phones, Trio --

Q: Right.

Madison: And I never will forget, first time I got it and my grandchildren were visiting from Wisconsin, and I handed the Trio to one of them -- a little bit more than 12 years old -- and I said, "I don't know how to get on the Web on this thing," and the next thing I know she's listening and watching the Disney Channel. And I had just taken it out of the box. I mean, it's instinctive to them. But I say that only because, one, I believe when the debates start -- and we're going to have more than one -- you're going to start seeing this seismic move in the polls and the Obama campaign will have to go beyond flowing rhetoric.

Q: Ah.

Madison: They will. It just is going to happen. If not, I will say to them right now -- and again, I am not a registered Democrat or a Republican; I changed to non-affiliation a long time ago. But I will remind these people, do not underestimate old age, old politicians. I ran against a man that was 76 years old, used to go to sleep in city council meetings. And I said, oh, he is a cinch to beat. But somebody once said to me, "old age and treachery will always outdo youth and inexperience any time." [Laughter]

Q: [Laughter]. And that's a great note to end on. I think you summarized the week in politics. Joe Madison, the Power.

Madison: Thank you.

Q: He's there all the time.

Madison: Every morning.

Q: It's great to be on with the Black Eagle.

Madison: Any day.

Q: We'll be back in a moment.